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Day 4
Nov 12, 2014 17:03:51 GMT
Post by doctorargon on Nov 12, 2014 17:03:51 GMT
I regard anything that propogates as disconcerting, although I understand why you did it. Heck, I even twigged onto it after Eversor failed to die by fire on Night 2. I guess my concern is that all of the Town power roles, while not necessarily negative utility, were very swingy and skill-testing. In theory this is fine, but look what happened in practice: the Jailkeeper wound up in the hands of a lurker who eventually had to be modkilled; the Governor's keen analysis was overencumbered by his gratuitous play errors (including tunnel visioning on the wrong individual - and don't think I'm forgetting that Doctor Dumb comment, either, Kairyu); your compliments aside, the Vigilante only managed to survive his own idiocy by the barest of margins, and even then still failed in his duty of eradicating the Mafia; and the Insane Cop wound up in the hands of *Faxonboy*, on whom I see no reason to elaborate. Worst of all, the Propogating Mafia Tough Guy meant that the Vigilante's utility had evaporated by the late game, which meant that even operating at 100% effectiveness the Vigilante was only a Two-Shot at best - and that's not even taking into account the possibility of MISSING.
That said, I'll take you guys at your word that the game was balanced. It doesn't feel that way to me, but I'm a newbie who doesn't know anything about balancing a Mafia game, so what the hell do I know?
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Day 4
Nov 12, 2014 17:12:08 GMT
Post by doctorargon on Nov 12, 2014 17:12:08 GMT
Also, I *will* say that I'm in the process of designing two Mafia games right now, and the second one...its power roles are being designed to be even more swingy than the ones in yours. Seriously, ask Herald; he's been the dumping ground for the gratuitously insane ideas I've had for that one. And if you're wondering HOW insane...let's just say that Bulletproof Doctor was discarded by virtue of not being ridiculous enough.
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Day 4
Nov 12, 2014 17:22:41 GMT
Post by Malice on Nov 12, 2014 17:22:41 GMT
Unfortunately, it's impossible to take each player’s skill level into account when designing a game.
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Day 4
Nov 12, 2014 17:26:58 GMT
Post by doctorargon on Nov 12, 2014 17:26:58 GMT
Yeah, I know, which is a problem. Hence why I mentioned theory vs. practice. I guess sometimes you have to just draw up the game you want and hope for the best. I can't really begrudge you for it happening, obviously; I just felt it was worth pointing out.
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Day 4
Nov 12, 2014 18:22:22 GMT
Post by kairyu815 on Nov 12, 2014 18:22:22 GMT
I'd also like to mention that I played consistently with how I've played in the past. Epoa never trusts me in-game (due to several times of being burned by me), and so he drew all the attention to posts that are very Kai (not bad, btw. It's fine to form alliances.) Eversor then jumped on the opportunity get a skilled player lynched day 1 (a player who had pinned down the mafia). And since 2 of the veteran players were advocating my lynch, the rest of the sheep followed.
And the reason I claimed is because heat =/= votes. I saw very clearly that I had become the bandwagon target, regardless of there only being 2 votes on me. So I claimed, as it could verify me. Obviously, that didn't work (because of eversor spouting "bad logic" while he advocates the lynch of a power role.)
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Day 4
Nov 12, 2014 18:38:19 GMT
Post by doctorargon on Nov 12, 2014 18:38:19 GMT
I'd also like to mention that I played consistently with how I've played in the past. Epoa never trusts me in-game (due to several times of being burned by me), and so he drew all the attention to posts that are very Kai (not bad, btw. It's fine to form alliances.) Eversor then jumped on the opportunity get a skilled player lynched day 1 (a player who had pinned down the mafia). And since 2 of the veteran players were advocating my lynch, the rest of the sheep followed. And the reason I claimed is because heat =/= votes. I saw very clearly that I had become the bandwagon target, regardless of there only being 2 votes on me. So I claimed, as it could verify me. Obviously, that didn't work (because of eversor spouting "bad logic" while he advocates the lynch of a power role.) Note I was claiming you were Mafia (middle of page 35, prior to your role claim) before Eversor was (bottom of page 38, after your role claim). The closest he comes is asking Epoa for an expansion of his analysis of you on page 29, but he still says he's not getting a scum vibe from you. Heck, you were taking so much flak for your role claim from Fessus, Herald, and Phatpack by the time page 38 rolled around, I'd say the bandwagon had already formed by the time Eversor got on your case. TL;DR: Your timeline is a bit flawed.
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Day 4
Nov 13, 2014 13:43:11 GMT
Post by golgarispy on Nov 13, 2014 13:43:11 GMT
Also, I *will* say that I'm in the process of designing two Mafia games right now, and the second one...its power roles are being designed to be even more swingy than the ones in yours. Seriously, ask Herald; he's been the dumping ground for the gratuitously insane ideas I've had for that one. And if you're wondering HOW insane...let's just say that Bulletproof Doctor was discarded by virtue of not being ridiculous enough. that setup sounds like a plan if you never want people to play mafia ever again there's a reason roles are called bastard roles
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Day 4
Nov 13, 2014 13:49:55 GMT
Post by golgarispy on Nov 13, 2014 13:49:55 GMT
I regard anything that propogates as disconcerting, although I understand why you did it. Heck, I even twigged onto it after Eversor failed to die by fire on Night 2. I guess my concern is that all of the Town power roles, while not necessarily negative utility, were very swingy and skill-testing. In theory this is fine, but look what happened in practice: the Jailkeeper wound up in the hands of a lurker who eventually had to be modkilled; the Governor's keen analysis was overencumbered by his gratuitous play errors (including tunnel visioning on the wrong individual - and don't think I'm forgetting that Doctor Dumb comment, either, Kairyu); your compliments aside, the Vigilante only managed to survive his own idiocy by the barest of margins, and even then still failed in his duty of eradicating the Mafia; and the Insane Cop wound up in the hands of *Faxonboy*, on whom I see no reason to elaborate. Worst of all, the Propogating Mafia Tough Guy meant that the Vigilante's utility had evaporated by the late game, which meant that even operating at 100% effectiveness the Vigilante was only a Two-Shot at best - and that's not even taking into account the possibility of MISSING. That said, I'll take you guys at your word that the game was balanced. It doesn't feel that way to me, but I'm a newbie who doesn't know anything about balancing a Mafia game, so what the hell do I know? bulletproof is actually subtly both an advantage and a drawback, and tends to shift the game to day analysis (which i prefer) generally, if someone is bulletproof, it's fairly likely that the person is not town (it's commonly used with the serial killer role, for example, even though it's not really that helpful and it can be used with mafia roles as well), and that means that day analysis is crucial to determining alignment assuming the vigilante fires at someone with the bulletproof modifier and yes the setup was high-variance, that's what malice wanted (well he wanted a bastard setup but i had to save him from himself)
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Day 4
Nov 13, 2014 13:51:34 GMT
Post by golgarispy on Nov 13, 2014 13:51:34 GMT
I'd also like to mention that I played consistently with how I've played in the past. Epoa never trusts me in-game (due to several times of being burned by me), and so he drew all the attention to posts that are very Kai (not bad, btw. It's fine to form alliances.) Eversor then jumped on the opportunity get a skilled player lynched day 1 (a player who had pinned down the mafia). And since 2 of the veteran players were advocating my lynch, the rest of the sheep followed. And the reason I claimed is because heat =/= votes. I saw very clearly that I had become the bandwagon target, regardless of there only being 2 votes on me. So I claimed, as it could verify me. Obviously, that didn't work (because of eversor spouting "bad logic" while he advocates the lynch of a power role.) Note I was claiming you were Mafia (middle of page 35, prior to your role claim) before Eversor was (bottom of page 38, after your role claim). The closest he comes is asking Epoa for an expansion of his analysis of you on page 29, but he still says he's not getting a scum vibe from you. Heck, you were taking so much flak for your role claim from Fessus, Herald, and Phatpack by the time page 38 rolled around, I'd say the bandwagon had already formed by the time Eversor got on your case. TL;DR: Your timeline is a bit flawed. that was the entire mafia on a bandwagon
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Day 4
Nov 13, 2014 15:17:44 GMT
Post by doctorargon on Nov 13, 2014 15:17:44 GMT
@spy:
1. ...I'm probably going to need a TON of help balancing that one properly.
2. Again, thank you, both for the explanation and for preventing Malice from dooming us all.
3. In retrospect, that did not escape my notice. Also note that Eversor is currently using the same tactic on Epoa that he used on Kairyu and attempted to use on me.
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Day 4
Nov 13, 2014 17:02:26 GMT
Post by Malice on Nov 13, 2014 17:02:26 GMT
That's what I wanted. It's not what I got.
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Day 4
Nov 13, 2014 17:03:55 GMT
via mobile
Post by doctorargon on Nov 13, 2014 17:03:55 GMT
*Sighs and facepalms* Oh, TK...you're really not doing yourself any favors here.
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Day 4
Nov 13, 2014 17:17:05 GMT
Post by herald on Nov 13, 2014 17:17:05 GMT
That's what I wanted. It's not what I got. Sorry Malice.
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Day 4
Nov 13, 2014 17:27:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by doctorargon on Nov 13, 2014 17:27:09 GMT
It's not entirely your fault. All of us basically just went, "Wait...can we be sure he's telling the truth?" "...Does it fucking MATTER?!"
And, of course, when Eversor had the same issue and claimed Commuter, everyone else just went "herpaderp, okay, that explains everything because everyone use flawed logic in Prinny Army Mafia." You have NO IDEA how much restraint it took me to not say "I'm surrounded by idiots..." at some point on Day 3.
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Day 4
Nov 13, 2014 17:27:35 GMT
Post by Malice on Nov 13, 2014 17:27:35 GMT
For the record, my first draft of this setup included several cops (all with different sanities), a random vigilante, a town-aligned role blocker (without any mafia power roles that could be blocked), and a doctor that was unable to heal the cops. What G_Spy keeps saying is true; you should all thank him for helping mold this setup into something considerably less bastard.
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